I swear it is the most awful match up in starcraft, theres no skill in it nowadays it just becomes a fourgate fest. Personally my favourite at the moment is the very micro intensive TvT xD
But id love to hear you guys opinions on the matter and also some strategies that you Brotoss players out there might use to mix up the game
i challenge any non top-200 on the ladder protoss (or azz) to stop me from 4-gating them 3 gate roboing.
edit: im not saying you're wrong or anything, im just saying that executing 3 gate robo to stop a 4 gate requires mechanics that 99.99% of people on the server dont have, whereas like 60% of people have the mechanics to execute a 4 gate.
Last edited by NvPinder; Thu, 3rd-Mar-2011 at 2:00 PM.
Not top 200 is basically inactive or shit, you could proberbly beat their 3 gate robo with a 3 gate.
well yeah and no, whilst i love to call everyone slightly worse than me horrible at the game as much as the next guy, you cant claim that only 0.01% of the people playing the games opinions matter.
don't get me wrong im not saying we should break the game for the top level simply so lower level players have an easier time, but I think there's definitely things blizzard could do to make 4-gate a little less ridiculously difficult to stop PvP. I mean **** even in gsl most pvp's have been both players 4 gating or one losing to 4 gate because they gambled the other player wouldn't.
It's clearly a problem and has been for a long time.
Also, i noticed you're not in the top 200 yet i see you on almost every night, what does that make you benji? :P
300 Bonus pool = inactive. When its <50 you can call me shit.
But my post may have been very to the point, what I really mean is that you are easily a top 10 player on the ladder if you played it (which you don't, nothing wrong with that) and if you were to 4 gate someone that was 3 gate robo'ing and the person was outside of the top 200 there will be a skill difference which would render the results invalid. You'd need to get someone of equal skill to come to solid conclusions.
But, you're a damn good protoss, if you say 4 gate trashes 3 gate robo, ill believe that.
i'm not saying it by any means hard counters 3 gate robo, im saying that the ability of the player to hold the 4 gate with 3 gate robo has to be really, really high in comparison to the persons ability to perform a well executed 4-gate, which immediately causes a problem for everyone outside of that level.
take the average silver all the way up to mid-masters level player, if he has even just 40 apm and knows the build he can probably execute a 4-gate well enough to stomp any player outside the top 200 pvp if they were to open non-probe cut 3 gate robo. That was more my point, not the fact that i can do it and beat misc non-grandmaster protosses, the fact that ANYONE can do it and beat non-grandmaster protosses.
I noticed this when I was playing a second account to mess about with protoss and terran. PvP seems easily the least fun matchup of the mirrors :\ Even mostly roach vs roach wars is more interesting than 4gate-or-die.
i have a 22probe 4gate which i've taken down top 5 sea toss players with a number of times
(who were doing the 20 probe 4gate)
You have to execute it perfectly.
22probe 4gate> 20 probe 4gate imo.
if 22probe 4gate versus 22probe 4gate you should be able to add a 2nd geyser and tech up as well as make a ton of units to defend.
there are some reps at the end of this thread i made when people first started doing the 20probe 4gate. Go down to the end of the thread and dl those reps. (the first reps arnt viable as i discovered its impossible to stop warping up the ramp)
TVT are incredibly long matches. May be fun to play, boring to watch.
ZVZ can be fun to watch as long as it's not ling/bling wars.
I am not claiming to be great but I do alright (usually) vs 4 gate as long as I correctly call it. Just chrono 2 gates. I usually can have 6 units when they show up with their stalker/zealot/probe and start making the pylon. Focus down the pylon while a few of the zealots chase away the stalkers. By the time they warp in and walk another group of units there, I'll have my colossus out and usually things are ok.
I hate PvP for the fear of 4 gate though. If I think they aren't going to 4 gate, I don't chrono gateway units. If they do 4 gate when I didn't think they would, I will pretty much instantly lose. This causes me to often go "half way"... which means my robo is delayed AND I only have units from 2 gates... irritates me when I do this.
I would agree with a delay on warp tech. Add another 30 seconds or something. While it would impact the timing vs zerg and terran, I'd be willing to accept it.
Something I've been thinking of lately and wonder if anyone has tried it... 2 gate, forge, robo, vs 4 gate... get a cannon (or 2) at your ramp, zealots to help hold the ramp... would this set you back to much to be worth it?
Focus down the pylon while a few of the zealots chase away the stalkers. By the time they warp in and walk another group of units there, I'll have my colossus out and usually things are ok.
dogsi, i love you, but this is one of the more ridiculous things ive ever read.
My old PvP involved Forge first, into Gate + Cyber + double gas. 1 Zealot / 2 Sentry with a Stargate pumping VR's.
I would hit once I had 5-6 with a decent amount of Zealots to help, and a few Stalkers. I only ever lost maybe 2 games max with that build (out of probably 15-20 games around 3K-3.2K+ Diamond) when I was base traded and caught off guard.
Now'a'days I don't bother with it because it's simple to beat.
I seriously need a new strategy aside from 2 gate robo and fourgating in PvP =/
I use to go hallucination build occasion which usually proved quite effective and nowadays if I do PvP Ill go fourgate into stargate transition since they usually go 2 gate robo -.-
Use the 3 Stalker rush. If you see a 4gate, you can laugh and win as you will win providing you're not terrible. If you see a 3 Gate Robo, you have 2 options.
1) Go robo yourself, and have a Colossi war.
2) Go star and win the game with Phoenix (or void rays).
Use the 3 Stalker rush. If you see a 4gate, you can laugh and win as you will win providing you're not terrible. If you see a 3 Gate Robo, you have 2 options.
1) Go robo yourself, and have a Colossi war.
2) Go star and win the game with Phoenix (or void rays).
Collosi war is a bore -.- zzzzzzzzzzzz wouldnt mind learning that 3 stalker rush
dogsi, i love you, but this is one of the more ridiculous things ive ever read.
Works for me as often as not. The key is to slow the 4 gate til my colossus is out. What I do depends a lot on what my opponent does. A common 4 gate is 1 stalker, 1 zealot, 1 probe sent to my base and they try to build a pylon at my ramp. So I have 2 zealots "fight" their units while 2 more zealots and a stalker take out the pylon before they can warp anything in.
This isn't "reliable" as they can just build the pylon farther away or there's a chance I don't spot it in time. However, it does work. When that fails, warp in a sentry or two to buy time and try to pick off units when/if I can.
I hate 4 gating. I have not tried it even once in PvP and I'm not about to start. I did it a few times vs zerg but it just felt so lame.
Works for me as often as not. The key is to slow the 4 gate til my colossus is out. What I do depends a lot on what my opponent does. A common 4 gate is 1 stalker, 1 zealot, 1 probe sent to my base and they try to build a pylon at my ramp. So I have 2 zealots "fight" their units while 2 more zealots and a stalker take out the pylon before they can warp anything in.
I think what Pinder was referring to as ridiculous was you having a collosus out by the first round of 4 gate warp ins....
I think what Pinder was referring to as ridiculous was you having a collosus out by the first round of 4 gate warp ins....
Well, not exactly what I said...
What I said was that I'd take out the pylon they would have been planning to warp in at. That generally slows down the warp in. Then they need to warp in at their main and walk back to my base with enough numbers to secure the pylon. By that time, I will have a colossus out. Usually.
What I said was that I'd take out the pylon they would have been planning to warp in at. That generally slows down the warp in. Then they need to warp in at their main and walk back to my base with enough numbers to secure the pylon. By that time, I will have a colossus out. Usually.
it's just not possible to have the units to kill the first pylon and the probe trying to build it and tech to collosi THAT fast man, like, an immortal you might just get out, maybe, but even that would be legitimately difficult off of 1 gate robo.
The new 3 stalker chrono works really well for me and allows me to easily transition into a robo enough time for my immortals to come out and turn the tide of the 4 gate pushes.
Does anyone have a build order for the 3 stalker push/ 3G robo and a basic explaination how it works (e.g. is it a defensive or aggressive build. Is that push more of a poke or is the build aggressive in a different way)?
I am just not quick enough for the 4G vs. 4G where a few seconds make a difference in who wins, so hopefully this build might be easier for me to pull off.
Does anyone have a build order for the 3 stalker push/ 3G robo and a basic explaination how it works (e.g. is it a defensive or aggressive build. Is that push more of a poke or is the build aggressive in a different way)?
I am just not quick enough for the 4G vs. 4G where a few seconds make a difference in who wins, so hopefully this build might be easier for me to pull off.
Its a semi aggressive build but then it turns into counter attacking play realistically, you use the 3 stalkers in order to delay the fourgate and scouut for proxys whilst you have some units pumping our e.g. immortals then into collosi
Does anyone have a build order for the 3 stalker push/ 3G robo and a basic explaination how it works (e.g. is it a defensive or aggressive build. Is that push more of a poke or is the build aggressive in a different way)?
I am just not quick enough for the 4G vs. 4G where a few seconds make a difference in who wins, so hopefully this build might be easier for me to pull off.
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