[nirvAnA]

Community Opens A change is coming?

First up, a recap of today's community open finals by crAzerk who spontaneously decided to write this!

Shortizzz vs Rainbow CO #35 Finals Recap by crAzerk !

+ [Game 1] +

Game 1
Map: Daybreak
Shortizzz opens with a standard Hatch first while vkRainbow applies some early pressure with a bunker rush just out of range of Shortizz' Hatchery. The pesky marines forced 2 spines and additional ling production, and Rainbow executes a clearly-practiced transition -
He pushed almost immediately once he had 1 hellion and a pack of 7 marines - while transitioning into dual port Banshees!

But what was amazing was Shortizz' reaction - he saw the small pack with 1 hellion, senses something amiss, and puts down 2 blind Spores at each base! Amazing game sense here!

Rainbow makes an attempt to push in when his Banshees came, but good micro with his 3 queens and spore/spine repositioning held it perfectly.

Rainbow transitioned into a blue flame + 2 thors + marines timing push, but Shortizz held this perfectly with a pack of mutas and banelings /lings

Both players settled into a macro game, with SHortizz having the econ lead for a while. Rainbow masses up an army of hellions, Banshees, vikings, thors, and even adds in a BC! The two players have several skirmishes but Shortizz' large army of Infestors help him hold his ground with mass IT and Fungal.

Shortizz' stronger econ allowed him to power back an army of banelings, mutas, lings and infestors as he teched to hive, and he made a strong bust which took out a ton of workers.
Shortizz never let up the pressure, continually streaming in lings to cut Rainbow down and keep him on 2 bases, while SHortizz went up to 4 bases. This non-stop pressure meant Rainbow had no income, and with good Neural Parasite control, Rainbow had to tap out after losing his last mining base and his mini BC army.

Very good hold of all the different timing pushes, with excellent game sense by Shortizz - luck perhaps? Would have been more exciting if it was not so one-sided after the mid game, but this game is testament to Shortizz' good game sense and strong mid-late game aggression. 1-0!

+ [Game 2] +

Game 2
Map: Shakuras Plateau (cross spawn)
Rainbow opens with a 2 Rax (one proxied behind his natural's mineral line) pressure while Shortizz expands normally. He does force a bunker cancel, but does not scout the 2 rax - but still holds off the marine pressure.

Rainbow expands while putting down more Barracks, while Shortizz drones up with a well-positioned Spine at his ramp keeping the marines out.
Once he reached a comfortable Drone count, Shortizz shifted into mass Zergling production, and gets ready for a Baneling bust! He even managed to catch a pack of 8-10 marines patrolling for Shortizz' 3rd off-guard with his army of Speedlings.

Once he had a good swarm of ling/blings, he goes ahead and perfectly busts Rainbow's barracks wall-in. Rainbow just wasn't prepared for it and had to tap out. GG 2-0!

+ [Game 3] +

Gotcha

Over the past few weeks the CO has been declining in popularity So Mezza and JacziE have talked to me about mixing the COs up abit to keep people interested in joining. This is something I agree with as I feel people stop joining after a few times when they don't feel they have a chance to win anymore. So the tournament will remain at the same time/day every week with the same prize pool but the only difference is the format.

What do you guys think about it? Please vote wisely as this will decide the future of or COs!!

+ [Some of the possible formats] +

1. Remain as it is - The COs should always stay the same!

OR

2. Alternative formats to be switched up during the month. This includes the standard 1v1 and it will be a rotation. So for example

Week 1: Standard 1v1 Tournament
Week 2: Mini Race Wars
Week 3: Mini Clan Wars
Week 4: Standard 2v2 Tournament

The different formats

Standard 1v1 tournament - The CO as it is today.
Standard 2v2 tournament - 16 Teams Max. Last time we tried 2v2 for a month and it wasn't so hot, not many teams joined.

Standard KOF - teams of 2 - 32 teams max. Pick a partner and go through the brackets KOF/GSTL style. No restrictions, period.
Mini Race Wars - teams of 2 - 32 teams max. - Pick a partner of the same race and go through the brackets KOF/GSTL style. No restrictions other than being the same race as your partner.
Mini Clan Wars - teams of 2 - 32 teams max. Pick a clan mate and go through the brackets KOF/GSTL style. No restrictions other than being in the same clan as your partner.

Teams of 3 will not be considered because it takes way too long and that way only a limited amount of people (8 teams) can play.

[RamboLicious]

Yeah, I would love to see a clan war as well, but I'm wondering how the format would be like, as it's gonna take a long time for a clan to win the other.

[crAzerk]

I feel people stop joining after a few times when they don't feel they have a chance to win anymore.

I don't see how changing the format (According to what you've described) will directly address this problem. Any weekly tournament is bound to be repetitive and if the same few elite players join each time these same few people will end up in the semis etc and win it.

To explain what I mean more clearly : changing the format to be a rotating schedule of 2v2s/clanwars etc addresses the problem of 'People finding 1v1 tournaments boring and hence not taking part', but it doesnt address the issue of 'people not taking part because they dont think they can win it'

To address that problem (people think they can't win), the 1v1 tournament format has to be changed.
Suggestion
- CO Winners being 'seeded' in future tournaments. What this means is that seeded players will always be matched against each other in the first round, to ensure that non-seeded players get further more often. (Rather than same few people dominating the brackets)

Of course, this will mean that the 'elite' players are knocked out early and has its repercussions (less community interest when they dont' see a familiar name, etc)
However, it seems like a necessary tradeoff, if you really do want to rectify the "problem" stated.

Quick Comments

biogenie:

haha mate.. u are definitely looking for the next moonGlade / deth of SEA!! ^^

[nirvAnA]

Format for clan war is "2 clan mates per team, BO1 style"

So it basically takes the same time as a Bo3. Either 2-0 or 2-1 and with 32 teams it will finish around the same time as our COs!

I think if its a different format more people will be encouraged to join. Like the ESLs which were a new thing - at first lots of people joined at the start then slowly only the top players bothered.

[crAzerk]

Some people aren't that interested in team games, and only 1v1 (i.e. me! haha) so that may be an issue. However, I AM interested to see some leet 2v2 teams in action though, lost to so many of them Master league teams when I was trying to get my 2v2 Masters. SO many tactics such as pooling for fast 6 gate blink stalkers, mass VRs, etc.

But as I mentioned in my previous post, the 'problem' if it exists, still remains.

[cruxBsK]

Should be the same however it should be earlier in the night I.E 7:30pm AEST I feel like some of the issues are its too late at night (and if you do well) you can finish really late.

[RamboLicious]

7pm Singapore time is the best I can do , please don't make it earlier
Had to rush straight from work to home without dinner T_T, eating instant noodle between games

Quick Comments

	biogenie:	nod nod** from a fellow singaporean...
	nirvAnA:	lol instant noodle!!!!!

[Cyanide]

how about the KOF style but higher level players have a restriction such as partnering a lower level player (and I don't mean GM+Plat/diamond). I can see this working well, especially if it's a race war format. Low level Toss with a high level toss.

This way, low levels can learn from his partner

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Doctor:	Oh i would love for things like that to happen !

[Doctor]

It would be great if there are mini clan wars , or an event especially for the clan beside the big 4 , like FaDe , ToR , VB , etc. It would be an opportunity for them to show their clan's strength and be more active !

[|Erasmus|]

Part of the problem has also been a number of people playing in competing events, such as the ESL quals which clash...

I don't mind other formats (although I like the CO the way it is... have some other tournament that doesn't run every single week to mess around with weird fomats imo) but I don't think they necessarily make the lower players more likely to feel like it's worth playing (since they still can't win).

They're just a great way to get some not high-pressure games against some good players, and learn from it... got to play another GM last night, and while I lost handily in the end, it wasn't like GMs are some all-powerful machines that just roll you over instantly.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Cyanide

how about the KOF style but higher level players have a restriction such as partnering a lower level player (and I don't mean GM+Plat/diamond). I can see this working well, especially if it's a race war format. Low level Toss with a high level toss.

This way, low levels can learn from his partner

Wheres the incentive for the high level player?

[Eddie]

Was a full CO yesterday and that was up against the ESL quals.

As for timezones ideally they should swap, 1 week good SG time, next good AEST time, which is what often happens i believe.

I think it should remain the same format. Good opportunity to showcase some of sc2sea's up coming talent, and for people to practice against opponents they might not be able to in other events. Besides we couldn't award the same award/prizes from previous CO's? Would be strange and take away some of their value imo.

Such ideas could be ok on a Tuesday perhaps? We used to have Systems funday tuesday things, quite similar, however such events don't seem to attract as many players as 1v1 tournaments, especially over a duration of weeks.

Have the CO's really been that poor lately? I wouldnt have thought so

Just my thoughts.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	I agree.
	nirvAnA:

[biogenie]

hey all,

Just wanted to chip in an idea... I am kinda the mentioned above: join once or twice.. and got disheartened >___<~ with the lack of chance of even winning..

I saw the above ideas but I was thinking about a format closer to Footballs' Champions League, or prolly MLG for that matter. Its to seed people.

I think since the community open is meant for the community. Apart from seeding say the top 8/16. We should look in to a format where say GPD gets the "loser" bracket. And M-GM gets the "Championship bracket"

The higher the GPD participants go, the M-GM people will get inserted into the matches. This way, apart from giving us the "GPDs" a chance to play a few more matches. It also gives the M-GM a better "opponent" Why? you might ask. Apart from the sad, Byes, I seen, the next big problem is to have casters cast a match thats worthy to watch.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, to all BSGPD players, which include myself, I think on our day, we can take on a tier higher but when we get mixed with say a Masters. I don know if you know, our hearts sink... Not that we don't wanna play against the best to get to the top.. We simply have no chance at all... It is different where we have a fighting chance vs No chance :/

Back to the tourney organisation:

Just a rule of thumb, the seeding points should follow F1's standard. Where winning is more important than coming in 2nd / 3rd, if you racing fans remembered how Lewis Hamilton almost won his first title on his debut season. Thats what I am talking about.

In any case, I would love to work out the necessary logistics and planning to give you a better idea. But i am sorta heading to uni now. If you guys think this might be a good format. Please quote a lil, and I will work this out by this "evening" your time.. arvo my time ^^

Currently I am in Denmark on exchange so ye.. different time zone.

Cheers all

Have a great day.

BioGenie

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Maynarde]

With Eddie's post, I agree that perhaps times could be shifted on a weekly basis by an hour or so to accommodate the different time zones of SEA. Perhaps a switch between the three that are listed on the top of the site? NZ, AEST, SG.

The format is good, and amazingly enough CO had 63/64 players last night even with ESL quals. As long as the map and prize pool remains interesting, I think the CO will continue with little wane in popularity.

A lot of the reason people don't play in the CO (based on the responses I've heard, anyway) is simply because they think they don't have a chance. Who cares!? It's free to enter and you have a good chance to get matched up against SEA's best! It's a perfect opportunity to get some tourney experience (again, for free), practice and discuss your games with the baller studs that beat you, and have a good time!

At best; you win the CO and instantly gain notoriety, money and e-fame. At worst; nothing. You don't lose ladder points, only time on SC2. And let's be honest, you were gonna spend that time on SC2 anyway

[biogenie]

Originally Posted by Cyanide

how about the KOF style but higher level players have a restriction such as partnering a lower level player (and I don't mean GM+Plat/diamond). I can see this working well, especially if it's a race war format. Low level Toss with a high level toss.

This way, low levels can learn from his partner

great idea.. but the only concern is prolly handling the mix well ^^ we won wanna get a lot of guys match-making themselves only to own all the made up groups haha... but definitely a good idea to work on.

[matthras]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

A lot of the reason people don't play in the CO (based on the responses I've heard, anyway) is simply because they think they don't have a chance. Who cares!? It's free to enter and you have a good chance to get matched up against SEA's best! It's a perfect opportunity to get some tourney experience (again, for free), practice and discuss your games with the baller studs that beat you, and have a good time!

Considering it's a tourney, it comes with the added mental notion that if you compete, you're aiming to win. If people ditched that mindset, then yes, your points are valid. However you must consider that not all of us are individuals with a mindset focused purely on improving as a player. I imagine most people under Masters lose enough games to other people on ladder as it is, and in a tournament the stakes are obviously somewhat higher.

I feel that seeding previous CO winners is a reasonable option, since then the unseeded people who make it further feel better about it. At the same time if someone is casting for the whole of the tournament, then it allows for a higher level of quality games in general to be casted over the whole tournament.

I also do agree on switching around timezones every now and then, then it's fair for everyone given that everyone has their standard days.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Fourby]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Wheres the incentive for the high level player?

The satisfaction of knowing you are helping someone in the community, of a lower level, improve while having some fun games with that person??

Sometimes you need to remember the Community Open is more about bringing the community together once a week, and not just about showboating your skill.

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

Well said

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by matthras

Considering it's a tourney, it comes with the added mental notion that if you compete, you're aiming to win. If people ditched that mindset, then yes, your points are valid. However you must consider that not all of us are individuals with a mindset focused purely on improving as a player. I imagine most people under Masters lose enough games to other people on ladder as it is, and in a tournament the stakes are obviously somewhat higher.

Hey man, of course everyone that enters is aiming to win. I'm just saying that as a kind of "mental safety net" that there's no real down side to being part of the Community Open if you get eliminated. And as far as "stakes" go, you only have stakes to win in the CO and none to lose. That was more what I was trying to say there

I guess it's a mindset thing like you said, and changing that is always easier said than done.

[HowAreYa]

I like how they are atm. Ive only played a few, got a few byes then got smashed by a grandmaster in one. Beat my first master player in another. Lost first round to a fellow diamond last night. So what if I don't have shot of winning, Its all about playing. I like having the shot to vs players who I wouldnt normally play.

GPD is where i would go 2 have decent shot at winning.

Also I dont have any "clan mates", I'm more of a solo sc2'er so I wouldn't be able 2 play in most of the other formats. If I were 2 recommend anything I would say a losers bracket would be most beneficial to the gpd'ers so they can get owned first round then try get a bit further in the losers bracket. But obviously that takes more time, and a new bracket system.

On the start time topic, Im from NZ, got home from work at 10.15pm. Played at 11pm. I guess thats late for Nz'ers but works for me.

[xpaperclip]

+1 to cycling the starting times so that it suits everyone at least every so often. I think the format should stay 1v1, as it is pretty much the only truly Open tournament here. Having another day for trying out some of the other formats might be a nice addition, but shouldn't be a replacement for COs.

With regards to seeding, that should imply that the first round has more higher v. lower league players, or it will just knock out good players in early rounds and result in more one-sided matches later on. That feels counter-productive to trying to encourage more entrants.

On the other hand, if by seeding you mean placing people in later rounds automatically like in Dox Cup, the issue I see with this is good players are playing less games, plus they have to potentially wait for ages.

An alternative solution I think is to try either: (a) group-based format (way too long) or (b) Swiss format, perhaps with Bo3 for the final round winners game. Everyone has to stay longer, but still finishes in roughly the same time overall, and should help even up the matchups as the rounds progress.

Aside with regards to people not entering due to having no chance:
I'm a lower league player (Platinum) and the time sucks for me, but I enter when I can (not often). So far I've not advanced once, and I'm perfectly happy with that, since I go into with no expectation of ever winning a game. I don't even go into with an expectation of any real improvement, since I usually get a GM opponent first round who just smashes me while I am literally laughing out loud at how badly I'm doing. I just enter because it's a nice opportunity to play on non-ladder maps and potentially get smashed by a pro.